Ignore the Thesaurus
Many moons ago, when I was just getting the blog going, Flahute chimed in with a suggestion. It was a good suggestion as Neruda has made frequent appearances in the months since. Though he doesn’t comment often, when he does it’s worthwhile. Better, for me, those worthwhile comments usually inspire a post or two. In keeping with that tradition, Flahute left the following in a comment on Tuesday’s post:
I didn’t even know that your wife had a career. So it really piqued my interest to read about your debate about leadership in your marriage. I face a similar struggle myself. Our marriage is often too equal and therefore a perpetual power struggle. I would be very interested in your experiences in this realm. Other bloggers like Athol seem to be gifted enough to be married to completely submissive women and there is no one talking about how to maintain a successful marriage to a (feminist influenced) woman who rationally thinks she wants equality even though that’s not how things play out all the time in the relationship.
Fuck equality in marriage. It’s a practical impossibility. It’s unwise. Striving to achieve equality only serves to anger both people involved.
With that out of the way, let’s move on.
The goal is fairness. Though fair and equal are often conflated, they are distinct concepts. Think of it this way, if you give two women an equal amount of herpes, have you treated them fairly? Or, as Alkibiades deftly put it:
Somewhere along the way the idea that marriage is an equal partnership has become mainstream. It is accepted as gospel. Now I don’t disagree that marriage is a partnership, I do believe the equal bit has gone too far. Equal in responsibilities? How so? Are the responsibilities equally split down the middle? Half the house work done by each? Half the money spending choices by each? Half the diaper duties by each? Ad nauseam? I dare say it is an impossibility. Instead what I have seen is a distribution of labor that both parties feel is equitable while not being truly equal.
The mistake that many men make when they take the idea of an equal partnership too seriously is deferring to their spouse in the decision making process. They place their significant other on an equal footing as themselves in the relationship. In the worst case scenario they put their spouse up on a pedestal in all things. In either case the results are the same. The fundamental flaw in this thinking is that it does not recognize or take into account the hypergamous nature of women. . .
Putting your spouse or girlfriend on an equal footing with you is an attraction killer. Whether women will admit it or not, there is no equal in their mind when it comes to relationships. There are those above her and those below her.
The attraction factor is the key to dealing with a strong-willed woman who has sipped from the cup of feminism, regardless of how deeply and thoroughly she ingested the contents of that cup. Couple fairness with silent leadership and maintain your higher status and you’ll short-circuit all predilections for equality.
Start small. Back when I believed in equality, Penelope and I on occasion fought about that most important of topics – what restaurant to go to. That’s a really stupid thing to fight about, but that didn’t stop me. I take opinions into consideration and then get mad about them, dammit. “Where do you want to go?” “I don’t want to go there, how about Mexican food?” “We ate Mexican food 4 days ago. Let’s go here?” This would continue ad nauseam and we’d end up splitting the difference such that the result was going somewhere mediocre that neither of us really wanted to go to. Now, when we do get to go out to eat, I don’t ask, I tell. “Let’s meet at X for lunch at noon.” We don’t always end up going to X, but by framing it thusly I take the lead in the process and avoid straying into equality/argument territory. (Dave used the same example. It’s a good example.)
This understanding extends to everything.
In other words, it’s all about subtlety. It’s all about your demeanor and tone of voice. Tell, don’t ask, but don’t be a dick about it. Involve her in the decision-making process, don’t ignore her opinions. Take her wants and needs into consideration. Doing so helps circumvent the shields modern society and college classrooms taught her to erect. The raising of those shields is a Pavlovian response, not a natural response. By being strong, daresay manly, but also being considerate of her, you avoid those Pavlovian responses. “I know how much you’ve wanted a new car and it really is time to replace yours. I’ve done some research and think this is the best model. The dealership by your office has one in white, I know how much you like white cars, and the salesman’s name is Mandrake. He’s expecting you to swing by for a test drive sometime between 3 and 4.”
Notice the subtlety. She can say no, she doesn’t like the car. You then present a new choice, again based on important things like quality, performance, and price, and let her make a superficial decision. Fair, but not equal.
In her mind, though, it is equal. You went to lunch together. You picked out a new car together. It doesn’t matter that the starting positions for those examples were limited. What matters is that you did take her opinion into consideration.
Ignore what your woman rationally thinks she wants insofar as equality is concerned. She’s regurgitating nonsense, not offering an honest opinion. Don’t directly tell her she’s full of it. Let your actions speak for you. Instead of challenging her and asking her to openly admit she enjoys it when you take the reigns and lead the household, just take the reigns and lead the household. She’ll be too happy to question it. Moreover, she’ll be able to spin it to the girls in the office or Facebook as the exact opposite. “I told Flahute he needed to buy me a new car and he did.” They’ll all admire how strong a leader she is and how equal a marriage you two share. She’ll take pride in her strength and leadership. No one but you ever need know the truth.
Hmm, looks like I’m scrapping another post I’d started contrasting fair and equal.
Ulysses, the poacher of good ideas.
Ulysses, the thought pilferer.
Ulysses, the expounder…
Stop me before I kill again….
[I'll cop to the expounder, but it doesn't trip off the tongue, so I won't be updating my handle.]
I’m married to a DC Lawyer (can I admit that without losing credibility?).
I don’t think there are any additional secrets or tips. It’s just more of the same. Persistence.
Excellent advice Ulysses. For those of us who didn’t marry a naturally submissive woman, this can go a very, very long way.
Subtlety. A thousand times yes.
Our car-buying process is almost identical to yours. Present well-reasoned choices that you can live with and there’s no issue.
Another aspect that has been important to our generally conflict-free household is defining who cares about what more. I personally don’t give a crap what color the walls are painted, as long as they’re painted well. So, she picks the color and I do the painting, because I enjoy it and she sucks at it. Conversely, when it comes time to execute a “physical plant” project, the details are left to me, with her stamp of approval on the design. I’ve always been stunned at the number of my friends who get sucked into debates over color schemes, decor or what furniture to buy. Seriously, do you really want to die on that hill?
Hah…thanks for the linkage ,U.
What’s funny is I’ve asked many guys if they had the same sort of conversation as I had like the one Roissy quoted, in his relationship game post, in which he compiled my commentary.
Seems like almost all men I know in relationships has gone through this…it’s almost as common as “Do I look Fat in this?”
You’re not meant to win this. Its a shit test. You proceed by not engaging her rationally. She’s looking to fight.
Treat her like an errant child. Take her home and let her stew.
And definitely order what you want, BTW.
Thanks for picking up this topic and you’ve made all good points Ulysses, but as I said in my comment, my wife does look to me for decisions and I do lead in that respect. There is nothing in this post that I disagree with or could do differently. My wife is very feminine in many ways and does not want to bear the full responsibility of these decisions. I take her input seriously, I respect it, I use it, but I ultimately make the decisions.
Leadership in a dual alpha household is a tricky thing, however (“Piranhas are a very tricky species”). To give just one example (I have many), my wife has had a significant amount of real estate experience yet I have had none. Therefore during real estate deals, I let her handle all the details, use the people she has worked with in the past, deal with brokers directly, and I am confident that she fully understands the contracts. She is more than competent, she is really quite good. So how do I let her do her thing, given that she has more knowledge and experience than me in this area, and not DLV? Impossible. What I have found is that it goes to her head and soon she thinks she knows better than me and challenges my decisions. Conflict ensues.
When I step back and consider it, I think our conflicts really boil down to her need to feed her ego and her need to feel every bit as good (or better) than a man. I know she was attracted to me and married me because I was man enough to handle her, but I think our conflicts stem from the fact that she is on various levels competing with me. Perhaps I am not handling her so well after all. Do I have to beat her at everything before she will stop competing with me and challenging me when she feels confident?
When a wife has this kind of ego, leadership of the household is another tricky area, but I’ll leave that topic that for another time. She is the primary caretaker of the children and that endows her with some power. She takes care of issues I don’t even want to deal with and she does it well. This also goes to her head.
Don’t tell me I married badly by marrying a feminist. Surely I am not the only one.
[Glad I could answer a question I made up instead of the one you asked, but as I said in the intro, your comments have in the past provided a couple of posts. This will be no exception. Part 2 coming tomorrow.]
Man, Flahute. It sounds like you and I married the exact same woman. Give an inch, and she takes a mile.
mormonmen, see, good, I’m not the only one. I’ll definitely check out your blog.
Thanks Ulysses, I think this exchange has been very good for me. Your post got me to think harder about leadership and helped me realize that she is competing with me. I have answered my own question. Yes, I need to beat her at everything.
Now that I have more energy this morning I will share a story in hopes that this will help others in a similar situation.
Things were good in my marriage before kids. After our firstborn, she began to initiate arguments which centered around how she does more than I do because of all the baby-related work, thus the partnership had tipped into an unequal state. I wanted a harmonious home, and I helped where I could. I got up in the middle of the night. I changed diapers. However, this argument would resurface again and again each time her resentment built up. No amount of effort on my part was ever good enough. Several years had gone by, we had a 2nd child, and her complaints are about packing lunches and backpacks, dealing with their clothes, etc. By this time, I no longer believed in equality. I finally told her, “Yes, you are right. You do do more of the childcare. You are their mother. That is your role.” We have never had this argument again.
Why not go to the root? Get rid of her hardcore feminism. If she’s smart and has a bit of awareness and perceptiveness, then reading the man’s perspective would open up her eyes. At least, that’s what happened to me.
Now, admittedly, I am naturally submissive and my husband is naturally dominant, in and out of the bedroom, so the situation is easy. But I was also stubborn and egotistical before my re-education in all the ways that feminism is rather bs.
At least for me, thinking about the situation intellectually (knowing that most men hate being nagged, bickering, and having a difficult woman) allows me to be even more submissive without feeling resentment or second guessing. There is no power struggle. I’m happiest when I am serving my husband, doing things to make him happy, and letting him take the lead.
I finally told her, “Yes, you are right. You do do more of the childcare. You are their mother. That is your role.” We have never had this argument again.
Summed up precisely.
Nothing more need be said about this.